Page 17 of 19

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:36 pm
by Midnight Rose
I'm sure no one meant any offense. The problem is that, as Katie said, if anyone feels pressured to participate (even if it was unintentional pressure) it would bring serious ethical implications for the team and could result in the whole trial being stopped. That won't get us anywhere.

I'm sure no one meant to put pressure on anyone but with studies such as these you have to be very very careful.

While I would certainly encourage people to consider taking part, as I feel it is a worthwhile study, if they don't participate for any reason at all then that is their choice and they shouldn't feel bad about it :)

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:48 am
by Muddiwarx
izzerie wrote:I think KatieD is referring to Muddiwarx's comments about the lack of people participating.

Hardly pressurising, I'm allowed to have an opinion. Which still stands.

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:54 am
by HereticPr1me
Is there any mention of tests being done in Scotland at all ?
Has the SRC organised anything to that effect ?

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:25 am
by acapae_wolf
I think toyah was hoping to organise something - so may be worth getting in touch :)

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:37 am
by HereticPr1me
good one, thanks Beri ;)

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:10 pm
by toyah
They want samples from England only so sadly those in Scotland are not able to participate.

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:57 pm
by HereticPr1me
Bah :( Im sure the rat population doesn't recognise pseudo-borders, lol.
Thanks then Toyah, if you hear otherwise be sure to post up ?

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:39 pm
by Midnight Rose
Muddiwarx wrote:
izzerie wrote:I think KatieD is referring to Muddiwarx's comments about the lack of people participating.

Hardly pressurising, I'm allowed to have an opinion. Which still stands.

No one wishes to quash your opinions at all but we do all have to be so very careful how we phrase things. If someone reads any post and, as a result, feels guilty that they hadn't rearranged long standing plans or swapped shifts or any of the other examples given, or if they went along purely because they felt that people in the rat fancy would judge them if they didn't, then that is them feeling pressured to attend. If they feel pressured at all when they attend then that jeopardises the whole study.

Rules and regulations and hoops to jump through don't care about opinions, they care about whether all the people attending did so completely willingly and not out of guilt or fear of judgment. As I said before, I'm sure no one intended to offend or pressure anyone and this is just a good reminder that we all must make sure that we don't bring the ethics of the study into question :)

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:26 pm
by Muddiwarx
What then about those who did face their fears of blood tests, cancel plans, swap work shifts, spend savings travelling etc....

Does the fact that they felt the need to do so, for the good of the fancy sway results and ethics of the tests? No one went because they love giving blood I'm sure ...

Surely anyone who went, went because they felt they ought to??? Not just for fun.

I've never heard the theory that people feeling guilty or feeling that they should do something will mess up the results of a test??

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:09 pm
by NellyNoodle
It's not a theory, and it's not that it will mess up the results - it's the ethical implications of people feeling pressured (by others rather than their own ethics) to take part. It jeapordizes the study because the HPA could cancel it on ethics grounds, not because of any effect it might have on the results.

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:34 pm
by KatieD
Muddiwarx wrote:What then about those who did face their fears of blood tests, cancel plans, swap work shifts, spend savings travelling etc....

Does the fact that they felt the need to do so, for the good of the fancy sway results and ethics of the tests? No one went because they love giving blood I'm sure ...

Surely anyone who went, went because they felt they ought to??? Not just for fun.

I've never heard the theory that people feeling guilty or feeling that they should do something will mess up the results of a test??
Hi Muddiwarx

I am sorry if you felt I was getting at you - that wasn't my intent.

Please believe me when I say I am all in favour of people taking part - medical research cannot happen without volunteers so everyone involved in making a wonderful contribution. Believe me when I tell you that I genuinely do not believe I would be alive today were it not for participants in medical research - these people are heroes!

Any sense that people were pressurised into taking part can result in a trial being lost (there are very strict laws on this that were put in place after WW2). In the UK clinical studies teams have to demonstrate, and will be audited, on making sure all participants gave full informed consent to take part. This means that they understood all the implications and risks of participating and did so by free choice without any pressure.

From my interpretation, any intimation that any individual should feel guilty about not participating could be seen as pressurising potential participants and the way I interpreted your comments meant I read them as inferring this (my interpretation, so if this wasn't your intention, I am sorry). If the study team were seen to be recruiting participants who were under pressure to participate, they would have to exclude their results. As this is an anonymous study, identifying those participants who were recruited here, after the posts of concern, might not be possible. As such, they would thus be bound by ethics to disregard any participants that MIGHT have come from here. Worst case scenario - they have to start again and perhaps their funding doesn't cover that? Because medical research legislation here in the UK is so strict (and I would say, the very best and safest in the world as a result) study teams have to take an extremely cautious approach. Perhaps I am being over cautious, and if you felt I was getting at you, I am sorry. That really wasn't my intention.

I posted from a desire to protect a study that I believe is of huge importance to our love of rats. It is really clear from your posts that you too feel this study is hugely important too. Saying that people shouldn't be pressurised into taking part doesn't mean that we can't say that those who do are heroes! You're absolutely right that many people who take part in research do so because they want to help, not because they enjoy it. This is one of the reasons why the rules around informed consent are so fuzzy and delicate. Without participants with a sense of duty and responsibility, we'd be stuck! But informed consent relies on the fact that this moral sense of duty is self generated, not motivated by anyone else. And believe me, I totally agree that this is impossible to prove!!!

I am truly sorry if any offence was caused and should have explained my concerns in more depth in my original post. It certainly wasn't my intention to offend you and I am sorry that I have.

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:07 pm
by Muddiwarx
KatieD wrote:
I am sorry if you felt I was getting at you - that wasn't my intent.
No, don't worry I didn't, I'm not hypersensitive.

I truly just don't understand - anyone that participated did so surely through a feeling/ sense of duty, would feel bad if they didn't get involved in an important piece of research, I don't see where someone stating disappointment at numbers, is pressurising or taking away free choice, in any way more than simply the awareness of the existence of such a test and choosing not to be involved.

But I have no wish to cause any sort of row. :)

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:29 am
by rockchick
Hi there,

I wonder if anyone can give me some info on this Hantavirus please?
We're just about to get 4 wee girlies :girly: :girly: :girly: :girly: from Toyah at Hawthorn and obviously no-one knows how widespread this virus is.
Cos I've got 4 kids i want to make sure I'm doing everything I can to prevent any problems.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The girls are going to be kept in my bedroom. Will this be ok?
Thanks in advance for any help.

Carol, soon to be mummy to Mimi and gran to Geraldine, Bailey and Camilla, lol

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:46 am
by NellyNoodle
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/H ... 7138521204

I personally don't wear a facemask and I still kiss my rats ;)

Re: Discussions relating to Hantavirus *Poll Added 6th April

Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:13 pm
by rockchick
Thanks for that.
The bedroom doesnt appear to be the best place to keep them though. We really dont have anywhere else to put them!!
Anyone i know who has hamsters etc, has always kept them in the bedroom.